Yes - that's true. I
put Folley against this muscled
guy -- a 'Madonis' - what is the
word I am looking for?
SHELTON:
Adonis.
FENN:
That's it - 'Adonis'. This fellow
Zanzibar was an Adonis -- and I
met him in Safford and drove him
all the way up to Clifton
(September, 1954). The whole way
there, Zanzibar had seen nothing
like it before. Nothing but
desert. Well, Folley knocked out
this Adonis, Zanzibar (7th
round), and that really
impressed some folks. But it was
the fight against (Nino) Valdes
(September, 1956) that was the
big one. This is what placed
Folley on the (national) map.
SHELTON:
The earliest Phoenix bout that I know of
was against K.O. Brown on
November 17, 1953. Could you
tell me anything about the
fight?
FENN:
That was at Phoenix Madison Square Garden.
All of the major bouts were held
there. Of course that wasn't his
real name ('K.O. Brown') but we
wanted something that sounded
right. (TKO win for Folley - as
Brown was unable to come out for
the 9th round). It was a real
loss for the city when they tore
down the Garden. The venue was
important from a historical
perspective. Many memories were
lost in its destruction.
SHELTON:
Folley was the legitimate No. 1 contender
for the heavyweight championship
throughout 1958. But
Cus D'Amato
(manager of Champion Floyd
Patterson) clearly was avoiding
Folley. That must have been
frustrating?
FENN:
I went so far as to contact our local
congressman, Stu Udall. Udall
was up in arms about what was
happening -- like most folks --
and he went so far as to promise
to introduce a bill in Congress
to force Patterson to fight
Folley. But as far as I know
Udall had never actually done
such a thing.
SHELTON:
(I delicately tread with Fenn's biggest
mistake -- matching Folley in
September, 1958, against British
heavyweight champion
Henry Cooper in England).
Could you tell me about the
Henry Cooper fight
in England? Folley was clearly
the better pugilist, scoring a
second-round knockout the second
time they met (December, 1961).
But that first bout gave Cus
D'Amato an excuse to allow
Patterson to avoid Folley. What
happened in England with Cooper
and that first decision loss?
FENN:
(Disgusted) The English judges robbed
Folley down there. Well, you
know, you cannot beat one of
their fighters by decision in
their own backyard.
SHELTON:
It appears that
Sonny Liston
was willing to fight Folley
after he won the championship
(September, 1962). But Liston
allowed Patterson a rematch --
another first-round knockout --
and then fought Ali ('Cassius
Clay' at the time) and lost the
title. Liston's loss was
probably Folley's last chance at
a title shot in his prime.
FENN:
Sonny Liston was the greatest heavyweight
of all time. The best that I
ever saw. (Liston scored a
third-round knockout over Folley,
July, 1960, which helped launch
him to a title bout). Liston
made a mistake fighting Ali. Ali
was too fast and clever and
Liston did not know what to do
with him.
SHELTON:
But that Liston loss (February, 1964) cost
yourself and Folley a title
bout.
FENN:
Well, Folley yes, but not me. I signed
Folley to a 10-year contract in
1953. So that ended in '63'. One
of the final things that I did
was to buy Folley a house. It
had been a financial struggle
for years and I had been against
his getting married and settling
down.
SHELTON:
You did not like Folley's wife or you
thought she would tame him too
much?
FENN:
No. Folley was never an angry person or
had bad habits. I liked his
wife. No, I was already paying
expenses for one person and a
family meant paying for more.
(Laughs). But I wanted to make
sure Folley had something when
our contract expired, and that
is how he wound up with a house.
After the changeover to
(manager) Bill Swift, I still
retained a 3 1/2-percent
interest.
SHELTON:
Folley eventually landed his title
opportunity (March, 1967), past
his prime (age 35), against an
undefeated Muhammed Ali at his
peak. What can you tell me about
that bout?
FENN:
Folley was not the best boxer. He could
hit, but could not take a punch
well. Folley had a good,
consistent jab with a sneaky
hard right. Swift trained him
different than Johnny Hart
(trainer) and myself. We wanted
him to develop better footwork,
develop a shuffle.
SHELTON:
Like a
Jersey Joe Walcott
or Ali himself?
FENN:
That's right! It turns out that Folley
needed this desperately against
a guy like Ali. Ali was not the
kind of guy that you just take
out. If you wanted to beat Ali
you had to take him out in later
rounds. To take Ali to later
rounds you needed footwork so
that you were not an easy target
for him. Folley would also need
to train his legs extra hard,
along with the footwork, because
Ali will be patient and let an
opponent wear down. You still
need to be moving and have some
kind of defense into the 10th
round if you had any hope of
beating Ali.
SHELTON:
It is maddening to be a boxing historian
and try to explain Ali to
others. A major misperception of
Ali -- in his time and
especially today -- is that he
was vulnerable against sluggers
or bigger guys who hit hard. The
pugilist who clearly gave Ali
(as 'Clay') the most problems
during the 1960's was Doug
Jones, a fast defensive
specialist with patience.
FENN:
That's exactly what I am talking
about! Folley was not a
defensive fighter by nature, but
he would have to alter his style
or have no chance against Ali.
(After the seventh-round
knockout, Ali spotted Folley's
son crying. In a lovely gesture,
Ali hugged the boy and told him
neither he or anyone would have
defeated his dad had the bout
occurred years earlier, in
Folley's prime).
SHELTON:
So you never managed another heavyweight
contender after Folley?
FENN:
I promoted
Sonny Liston briefly
toward the end of his career
(late 1968). He was still a good
fighter at that time. One was in
a Juarez (Mexico ) bull ring.
Liston won both of those bouts.
(A dominant and exciting
third-round knockout in Phoenix
over experienced Sonny Moore was
followed by a second-round
knockout over Willis Earls in
Juarez).
SHELTON:
The media reputation of Liston was of a
scowling thug -- sort of a
criminal.
FENN:
Sonny Liston was a very nice man.
Quiet and soft-spoken.
SHELTON:
So the media reputation that Liston was
some sort of animal was unfair?
FENN:
Well, those other fighters were scared of
him. They were beat before they
entered the ring against him.
Liston encouraged that.
SHELTON:
What was Sonny Liston's boxing peak?
FENN:
It was before he was champion when he
fought Clevelend Williams. Both
were big guys and it was one of
the greatest heavyweight bouts
ever. (Two TKO wins for Liston
against Williams -- both within
3 rounds -- in 1959 and '60).
SHELTON:
What did Sonny Liston like to talk about:
boxing or his family?
FENN:
It was tough to get Liston to say anything.
He was polite with a 'please' or
'thank you,' but he did not
reveal any more of himself than
was necessary. Dick Sadler
(manager) was the talker of the
two.
SHELTON:
So your association with Liston did not
last long?
FENN:
Sometimes Liston fought too heavy and did
not train like he should. They
(Las Vegas ) got hold of Liston.
He never did the kinds of things
that brought him down when I
knew him. He was clean. (Liston
died of a heroin overdose at age
38 in December, 1970).
SHELTON:
Liston and Folley lived parallel lives:
born within 3 weeks of one
another; fought their
first pro fight within three
weeks of one another; fought
their last pro bout within three
months of one another; and they
died within 18 months of each
other. What could you tell me
about Zora Folley's death?
FENN:
It appears that it was accidental. I
believe it was an accident. I
guess Folley was stepping out on
his wife. The guy he was with
was a professional celebrity
hanger on. They were meeting
with these two women. I believe
that the men began with
horseplay, trying to impress the
women. Folley pushed the man in
the pool. As he did this he
slipped off the ledge and his
head hit against the hard
surface.
SHELTON:
There is much gossip about murder and
conspiracy. I believe -- because
Folley was a good man with a
clean reputation -- that the
police felt it unnecessary to
tarnish his local image as a
family man. Because the police
revealed so few details --
except it was an accident --
this fueled the conspiracy
rumors.
FENN:
Oh, I hear the talk that Folley was
murdered. They say it was the
husband or boyfriend of one of
the women that found them,
became jealous, and whacked him.
I don't believe it, though. I
was at the funeral and his
family seemed convinced that the
police version. which was told
to them privately, was the truth
and that it was an accident.
SHELTON:
You used the term 'whacked' and this makes
me think of the mob -- and we
are talking about boxing. Has
the mob ever threatened you to
lose a bout or anything like
that?
FENN:
The mob threatened both myself and my
partner, Dave McCoy. The Nevada
mob approached me one day and
said that (pugilist) Irving Star
belongs to them now.
SHELTON:
Is that the only time the mob stole someone
from you?
FENN:
No, another fighter they wanted was Ray
Coleman. (A fast hand-speed
featherweight who fought out of
Phoenix in the early to mid
'60s). The mob called and warned
me that they would kill
Coleman's daughter. I laughed at
them: "Ray Coleman does not even
have a daughter!"
SHELTON:
Could you tell me the name of anyone that
was part of the mob?
FENN:
An Italian by the name of Ralph Gambino. He
worked the Nevada mob scene.
SHELTON:
Did you believe that the mob was serious
about their threats?
FENN:
Well, Dave McCoy was later murdered in Los
Angeles . He was suffocated with
a pillow and they never solved
his murder. I guess that could
have been me.
SHELTON:
That must have frightened you?
FENN:
No. I was sad about what happened to Dave,
but not as much as you might
think. It is tough to break into
the boxing business -- and maybe
not everything we did was legal.
But everything involving the two
of us died with him. (Laughs).
As far as Irving Star ... I
warned him that he would regret
betraying me, and the mobsters
eventually burned him.
SHELTON:
Boxing is a pretty sleazy world, so it must
be difficult to remain clean and
honest?
FENN:
I did the best that I could. I have known
hundreds of boxers. So many of
them were in gangs and their
life was headed nowhere. I
helped them develop a discipline
to their lives, and this in turn
led to self-confidence. Many of
these boxers were Hispanic and
they did not go on to win the
title, but they became
successful with their lives. So
many of them approached me after
they had quit boxing and thanked
me for helping to turn around
their lives.
SHELTON:
This must give you tremendous satisfaction?
FENN:
Yeah, boxing is a business, but it turns
out to be the human aspects that
brought out my best and most
lasting memories.
